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Wednesday, 18 July 2012

蔡智勇的邏輯

沒什麼時間,不能長篇大論,就簡略地談一談最近頻頻上報的蔡智勇的邏輯吧。

蔡智勇譏諷雪州政府,總是靠政府的外人潘儉偉來解答達南重組計劃的疑問,州政府本身卻不曾解答。

哇,典型的搬石頭砸自己的腳。人家潘儉偉好歹也是靈北區的國會議員,屬於雪州範圍,那蔡智勇是什麼身份呢?

如果潘儉偉不能解釋,那身為外州人,在外州的蔡公子又怎麼能夠對雪州政府指指點點了?

看來又是只許自己批評,不許他人解釋的雙重標準作怪了。重點是有沒有醜聞,挑起課題和解釋疑問的人的身份有什麼關係呢?還是回到事情的本身吧!

蔡公子同樣的邏輯也可以在之前的課題中看到,以下再舉多一個例子。

之前柔佛巫統柯美拉州議員拿督阿育在州議會內要求柔州實行回教法,而且需擴大應用在非回教徒的身上,引起軒然大波。

蔡智勇當時的回應是,他不是副首相,更不是首相,所以絕對不是國陣立場,根本不需要回應。當作什麼事情都沒有發生就可以了。

哇佬也,不是首相副首相就不是國陣立場,所以可以不理不追究,那蔡智勇也不是首相副首相,那他的回應也不能代表國陣立場,那我們到底要不要聽他的解釋,還是當是廢話呢?

還有還有,那國陣立場又是什麼呢?啊,納吉曾經公開聲稱過馬來西亞是中庸的回教國,咦,這又是不是國陣的立場了?

37 评论 Comments:

Kian Yeong said...

i was expecting bloggers and dap to question mca about this. finally, i saw your article. hehe

that aside, ppl should read out the circular of talam's corporate exercise. i doubt if this junior chua reading it

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

蔡智勇:你作晚又把喝完的奶瓶到处乱放,下次再犯,我就打你的屁股。

还有,你刚上幼儿园,功课做完了吗?

alan said...

i don't understand why a lawyer end up with this kind of rubbish article.

Watcher said...

Hi, alan, when you say rubbish, are you referring to MCA (Make Chinese Angry) only or CSL alone? Please make your point clear.

Watcher said...

By the way alan, I hope you aren't the same species of UMNO, I mean I hope you aren't a pig.

Because anybody with a little bit of capability in reasoning, should be able to see clearly that the FUCKED up situation in this country is due to the incapability and totally biased regime of UMNO/BN.

In case you haven't, it shows either you are dumber than pig or you simply one of those blood sucker vampires. Whichever way, none of us should show you no mercy at all. However for the sake of the people suffering in the land of Boleh for more than 50 years and also to save yourself from being further humiliated by your own retarded comment, I strongly suggest you to shut your piggy mouth up and start learning from us about politics. Have I made myself clear? Can you understand the words that coming out of my mouth?

Ang Woei Shang said...

Alan,

Ya, its rubbish and I proud about it because it's different from you. Thanks.

Watcher said...

Kian Yeong, I must say out of all the PKR performances in the country, Selangor is probably the worst. However this shouldn't be the reason for us NOT to support PKR. Because the main culprit, or should I say, the root of all evils comes from UMNO. To topple BN/UMNO, we must stand together, pull these type of evil roots out of our mother land and start growing new plants.

Yes none of us will guarantee whether PKR won't be as rotten as UMNO. But if everybody is blindly supporting it just like we used to do with UMNO/BN. It's the matter of time for any political party to become equally rotten just as UMNO/BN/MCA/GERAKAN. This is something nobody can deny. The right way to secure our rights is to balance up the political power among them all. Let them fight against each other to please us.

Some say PAS is horrible, yes I agree. But without them, how are we going to pull all the evil roots out? Don't forget, for more than 50 years, the monster BN has already instilled enough of stupid loyalty in the hearts of innocent low level citizen. These people are mostly saturated in ruler area, whereby praying and farming are the only things they do best but nothing else.

Nothing last forever, the same goes to a government. Enough is enough, how long can BN fool their own people? Well not for long, because look at Bersih 3.0, you will understand that, the Malays are waking up now. The number of Malay fighting against UMNO may not be sufficient enough to end the regime now, but for sure it's growing fast. It means, either UMNO/BN is dying slow or fast, but surely painful. Some believe giving another 2 more elections, that's it, UMNO/BN/MCA/MIC/GERAKAN will kiss our ass goodbye forever. Well, the pleasure is all theirs.

Watcher said...

Everybody, junior Chua is mimicking his father's tune in terms of self amusement. I used to believe he must have been adopted, but now, he is confirmed the biological son of the most despicable porn star of all time, CSL. Who can deny the way both of them stupidly uttering rubbishes just to please and comfort themselves?

But then again, maybe this is the best way to Make Chinese Angry more and to speedup their doomsday. Bravo junior Chua, keep it up, make more comments in favor of us.

Toh Ching Hong said...

洪伟翔,是你的逻辑有问题

根据洪伟翔大作《蔡智勇的逻辑》的论点,他说,既然不是雪州人的蔡智勇也可以对雪州政府指指点点,那么作为雪州国会议员的潘俭伟为何不能替雪州政府讲话?所以蔡智勇所谓潘俭伟是“外人”,没资格替雪州政府讲话,是没有逻辑的。

就谈谈蔡智勇和潘俭伟的逻辑。

首先,雪州政府施政出现弊端,或者被怀疑出现弊端,当然人人都可以指指点点,雪州人可以指指点点,柔佛人可以指指点点,吉打人可以指指点点,甚至外国人如孟加拉人和巴基斯坦人也可以指指点点,就好比马来西亚政府出现贪腐滥权,全世界任何人都可批评,马来西亚人自己可以批评,印尼人可以批评,日本人可以批评,毛里求斯人也可以批评。

其次,有人要替雪州政府辩护,当然也是人人都有这样的自由,所以潘俭伟要替雪州政府讲话,完全有这样的自由,但问题是:

一、潘俭伟可以“为雪州政府辩护”,但他能不能“代表雪州政府回应”?这是两码子事。

引起蔡智勇质疑的是雪州政府与达南公司之间的一宗债务交易案,涉及的是雪州行政议会(Executive Council)的运作与决策,而参与雪州行政议会会议、决策和执行的是“雪州政府成员”(Members of Selangor State Government),只有“雪州政府成员”能代表雪州政府回应这项质疑,而且也只有“雪州政府成员”的回应,在法理上才算是雪州政府的、具有法律地位的官方文书。

所谓“雪州政府成员”,包括雪州州务大臣(Menteri Besar)、行政议员(Exco)和州公务员。潘俭伟是雪州国会议员,但并非“雪州政府成员”,他甚至不是雪州议员,并没有参与雪州行政议会的运作和决策,他当然可以替雪州政府辩护,但他的言论却无论如何不能代表雪州政府。(对于这点,洪伟翔若不相信我,大可向在政治学、行政管理学有深厚造诣的行动党升旗山国会议员刘镇东讨教求证)

比如说,如果潘俭伟说:“雪州政府没有做错”,这能不能代表“雪州政府强调本身没有做错”?不能。只有大臣卡立、任何雪州行政议员或任何雪州公务员说:“雪州政府没有做错”,才是受承认的雪州政府的正式回应。

这就是蔡智勇的逻辑,根本的问题就是:潘俭伟所有针对达南课题的言论,能不能代表雪州政府和达南公司?他的言论有没有受到雪州政府承认为雪州政府的官方回应?如果两个问题的答案都是否定的,那潘俭伟的言论,只能说是他好心替雪州政府讲话,却不能代表雪州政府。

蔡智勇指潘俭伟是“外人”,并不是指潘俭伟是“外州人”,而是指潘俭伟是“雪州政府成员”以外的人。洪伟翔要谈逻辑,就应该先弄懂这个基本逻辑。

二、如果潘俭伟对蔡智勇的反驳都是正确无误的,为何作为“雪州政府成员”的大臣卡立、行政议员郭素沁、刘天球、欧阳捍华等人,不直接借用潘俭伟的论点,作为雪州政府的官方回应来反驳蔡智勇?

三、如果雪州政府在达南债务重组和资产交易的案件中,并没有什么见不得光的内情,为何不直接由雪州政府成员回答蔡智勇?为何要由非雪州政府成员的潘俭伟来回应?

四、同样的问题,如果雪州政府在达南债务重组和资产交易的案件中,并没有什么见不得光的内情,为何在2010年承诺要公布的白皮书,却要拖延整整2年到现在,都依然无法公诸于众?

蔡智勇是马来西亚公民,潘俭伟是马来西亚公民,前者完全有权利监督雪州政府施政,后者也完全有自由为雪州政府辩护,但是这并不表示潘俭伟的言论可以诠释为雪州政府的正式回应,这是风马牛不相及的两码事,希望洪伟翔明察!

杜静虹 启

Ang Woei Shang said...

Mr. Toh,長篇大論,請問你說了那麼多,有推翻了我文中所說嗎?

難不成你說了那麼多,就是來支持我說的?那也真是太謝謝你了,不過,你倒是有點文不對題了(跟自己一開始聲稱的不符)。

為什麼那麼說,就看看那你寫了什麼:

“所以潘俭伟要替雪州政府讲话,完全有这样的自由”

謝謝,這就是我想要說的,嗯,很明顯你同意了,外人可以批評,所以蔡智勇的嘲諷是錯誤的,謝謝。

至於你接下來的長篇大論,我同意啊,但奇怪,潘儉偉有代表州政府發言嗎?他把自己知道的講出來,請問何時是代表州政府發言了?

至於你的第二點,真是讓我笑掉大牙。Mr. Toh,如果潘儉偉是對的,雪州政府沒錯,就一定要大張旗鼓出來反駁讓對手廉價宣傳?那路上隨便一個人說Mr. Toh (I Assumed)是女的,根本不是男的,這很明顯是錯的吧,那你是不是每一個都要回應啊?那你趕快昭告天下吧,因為我已經在質疑了。

雪州政府已經把問題帶上法庭,還有比法庭更好討清白的場所?如果真是對的,讓蔡智勇去證明吧。如果是雪州政府說謊,那就是雪州政府搬石頭砸自己的腳咯,你急什麼呢?真不明白。

你的第三點,看來你時間,很多,是重複的。看回我第一段的回應。

第四,白皮書沒有交出來,就是有問題,很好很好。叫你的蔡智勇到法庭上用這一點指正有問題看看,法庭接受嗎。

可能你不明白為什麼不能,就像上面我說你是女的,我現在說你沒有回應,所以你肯定是女的,可以嗎?

不必轉彎抹角。如果有問題,直接反擊潘儉偉,反駁他,敢敢辯論,敢敢上庭指證,如此簡單而已。

對了,你說我邏輯有問題,請問在哪裡了?不要護主護到昏了頭了。除了第一天是在贊同我說的,你寫的長篇大論,好像都沒有碰觸到我說蔡智勇邏輯有問題的內容哦。

不夠沒關係,我還是一一給你回复了。要護主要先搞清楚自己的邏輯哦,不然就是貽笑大方了。

Toh Ching Hong said...

洪伟翔先生,我的回应是:

一、你针对我的留言所作的回应,等于承认自己的文章有偷换概念。

蔡智勇说的是:“为何雪州政府靠外人潘俭伟来解答达南重组计划的疑问,州政府本身却不曾解答。”(这句话直接引用自你的文章)。

但是,你却把蔡智勇的言论诠释为:“蔡智勇不允许外人对雪州课题指指点点。”

蔡智勇并没有不允许潘俭伟替雪州政府讲好话,他只是要求雪州政府回应他的质疑。而能代表雪州政府的,只有雪州政府成员。潘俭伟有替雪州讲好话的自由,但没有代表雪州政府的法定地位。

所以,你把“蔡智勇要求雪州政府回应质疑”,说成“蔡智勇不准外人对雪州课题指指点点”,这是偷换概念。

二、我没有必要,也没有资格“护主”,因为蔡智勇不是我的主人(如果你所谓的“护主”就是维护蔡智勇的话),我也不是国阵的支持者,我只是一个当今大马的读者,读到你的文章,觉得你的文章逻辑不通,而蔡智勇对潘俭伟的质疑又是合理的,所以提出我的意见。

我不知道你是不是行动党的支持者,但你跟行动党支持者的态度非常相像,就是只要任何人的言论是对行动党或行动党领袖不好的,你们就直接说我们是国阵的支持者,我们的话就是在“护主”。

其实你都根本不认识我,是凭什么断定我是国阵支持者,是在“护主”?就凭我一篇文章?

好心你啦,你以为整个马来西亚全部华人不是国阵支持者就是行动党支持者咩?全部华人只分成国阵和行动党咩?骂行动党就一定是国阵支持者,就一定是“护主”咩?

其实行动党真的没有必要把所有批评行动党的人或言论,都一概打成国阵支持者或“护主”的。这不会很心胸狭窄吗?

所以虽然我不知道你是不是行动党党员,但希望你不要学习他们。

否则,不止你的逻辑,连你的民主素养,也有待改进了。

杜静虹 启

Ang Woei Shang said...

麻煩你搞清楚偷換概念的意思再說。連文章都沒看明白卻還大言不慚,你真是再次讓我笑了。

請問我文章幾時說是外州?我幾時說“蔡智勇不允许外人对雪州课题指指点点。”

如果你的理解能力有限,我不介意幫你分析文章:

原文為“蔡智勇譏諷雪州政府,總是靠政府的外人潘儉偉來解答達南重組計劃的疑問,州政府本身卻不曾解答。

哇,典型的搬石頭砸自己的腳。人家潘儉偉好歹也是靈北區的國會議員,屬於雪州範圍,那蔡智勇是什麼身份呢?

如果潘儉偉不能解釋,那身為外州人,在外州的蔡公子又怎麼能夠對雪州政府指指點點了?”

好歹的意思是什麼你知道吧?當蔡公子嘲諷潘儉偉是外人(就像你說的,州政府外人,文章中有寫,你怎麼看不到呢?),怎麼他自己沒有想到自己更是外人中的外人呢?

文中寫的清楚,我寫的是政府的外人,怎麼你卻看不懂呢?看來不是理解能力的問題,還是語文能力的問題了。

第二,咦,你哪裡一點回應我上面的論述了?請問哪裡邏輯不通?你好像都沒有回應哦,卻還在自說自爽,沒有邏輯的到底是誰?

至於是不是護住,我也不願意置評。你不是護主,還是護主,對你的言論沒有影響,錯的就是錯的。

民主素養要改進,謝謝。不過還是希望你的思維好語言程度能夠改進,不要臉簡單的文章都看不懂卻還在大言不慚就好了。

Ang Woei Shang said...

“其实行动党真的没有必要把所有批评行动党的人或言论,都一概打成国阵支持者或“护主”的。这不会很心胸狭窄吗?

所以虽然我不知道你是不是行动党党员,但希望你不要学习他们。”

這兩句話好像有點矛盾,不過你應該不會覺得,沒關係,這是你的程度,我尊重。

至於請問你那裡看到我這篇文章在支持,或袒護行動黨了,竟然致使於你得出上面的論述。

套用你的話,嘲笑蔡智勇愚笨,並不等於支持行動黨或民聯。還是就是論事,不要扯太遠了吧。

請問哪裡邏輯錯誤了?不是“政府的人”,我文章你清楚寫出,怎麼你要歪曲我,硬是要說我吧蔡智勇的外人去切為外州人啊?

民主素養,嗯?

Anonymous said...

http://www.limfang.com/2012/07/blog-post_18.html?spref=fb

Ang Woei Shang said...

無名,

林放前輩的論點其實是對的,就像我文中的這句“看來又是只許自己批評,不許他人解釋的雙重標準作怪了。重點是有沒有醜聞,挑起課題和解釋疑問的人的身份有什麼關係呢?還是回到事情的本身吧!”

把事情攤開,大家把理據提出來。有就有,沒有就沒有,而不是做無謂兼且白痴的嘲諷。

alan said...

little kid - lawyer, pls learn from mr Lim Fang when you want to produce an article.

Don't simply act like an angry bird..

Ang Woei Shang said...

hahaha, big adult Alan, ya you are right, 林放前輩 teach me alot but anything to do from you? oh, yes, any "fantastic" comment from you? No? I'm waiting, you all made my blog interesting!

林放...屁 said...

Alan, 你一定是吃大便的卖华人。

alan said...

there are many ways to make yourself famous. to get close to LGE and DAP by moving from KL to Penang will not help you to achieve your goals. little kid... long way to go and many things to learn. your bad working experience and tension relationship with your ex-boss in KL make you become an angry bird.

do you know what is the worst thing to face counter part ? You know nothing about your counter part, but he knows A-Z about you.

little kid,,, keep it up.

Ang Woei Shang said...

“your bad working
experience and tension
relationship with your ex-
boss in KL make you
become an angry bird.”

Hahaha, typical be-end tactics, can't counter or answer rationally, then turn to baseless personal attack. very good, if you think your dirty tactics will work, then keep it on, I'm really appreciate it, this would make me more proud instead, shows that my article really panic you.

I have 2 bosses in kl, which both of them I'm also admired very much, do you want their contacts? I can give you if you want, maybe you can get more "infos" from them? Hehe, I doubt you dare.

Aiya, why don't answer my question? Ooops, I think I have expected too much by asking you to answer properly, sorry, I beg your indulgence~

Ang Woei Shang said...

"do you know what is the
worst thing to face counter
part ? You know nothing
about your counter part,
but he knows A-Z about
you."

Aiya, somebody thinks he is so pro? Of course, for somebody who hide behind his keyboard and dare not even put his real name, who cares about your identity?

Knows A to Z about me? What a big joke again, with my name on this blog, you can easily find my profile at Facebook, and most importantly, I got nothing to hide! Again, I'm really so g!lad that you think I am rubbish and thus is at different level and standard with you, luckily.

Another thing, counter part? You gotta kidding me? Counter part? Are you serious? Sorry, I never treat you as counter part, you just a joke for me, quite entertaining though, keep it up!

I'm so curious what Will you said la, please reply me quickly, very eager to read your reply, you are so entertaining! Please, dear Mr "Alan".

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

alan and the rest of the shit eating MCA/GERAKAN/UMNO/BN,

Hey doggy,why don't you pick your own size. Try me. Which part of our accusation against your MASTER umno is wrong? You should be ashamed of yourself for ranting pointlessly.

Yes I can understand all you people care is the MEGA PROJECTS that feed your cock sucking mouth. You and the rest of the BN members are the reason why our country is so fucked up and backwardness.

Who are you to accuse PKR of being rotten when your party has been proven as the worst of all time. Go stand in the mirror and rant it against your own piggy face. Speak for yourself ass hole.

Remember there are many people watching our comments. Mr Lim Fart is another fat cunt supported by BN. Please stop praising that ass hole. As I already made myself clear, if you can't say something upholding or at least producing anything that makes you look less stupid, please SHUT THE FUCK UP. Why embarrass yourself when you don't have to?

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

戏 名 :背叛的第一步

上映日期 :五十年前
片  种 :政治恐怖写实片
片  長 :五十年前至到下一届大选
導  演 :污桶
演  員 :
英女王 反串饰演 神父
PerkOsa强奸会主席 Ibrahim Ali 饰演 新郎污桶
蔡公公 反串饰演 新娘卖华
黑猫semi value 反串饰演 新娘狗大党
發行公司 :污桶
官方網站 :http://www.pkhkc.com

剧 情 :话说,当年二战刚结束,日本狗不是切腹自杀就是夹着尾巴投降。在一个风和日丽的星期天早晨,在伦敦大教堂里,就举行着一场别开生面的婚礼。是的,今天是新郎污桶一“贱”双“吊“的大好日子。他一次过娶卖华与小妾狗大党为妻。难怪他“淫“面春风的站在一傍,等待神父为他主持婚礼。

神父对着新郎污桶问“新郎污桶,你愿意一次过,娶卖华为你的正室,狗大党为你的小妾,折磨他们,欺负他们,让他们两条帮你擦屁股,洗厕所,久久喂它们吃一点面包碎吗?”

新郎污桶急不可待的说“我愿意!我当然愿意!”

神父对新郎污桶的反应有点恶心,可是也不便表露出来,所以压抑着,转过头开始问口水已经流得比尼加拉瓜瀑布还要凶的卖华与当小妾也感恩得不得了的狗大党。“新娘卖华,狗大党,你们两条愿意嫁给污桶,做他的奴隶,鞠躬尽瘁,帮他出卖你们各自的族群吗?”

新娘卖华连口水也来不及擦,生怕新郎会突然反悔,或许是太兴奋吧,他几乎喊着答“我愿意!”,在旁的黑猫新娘狗大党也不甘势弱,竟然喊得比卖华还要大声。他的一句“我愿意”与外头早已等得不耐烦的太监们与一群猪高喊,抹地吧!抹地吧!,大声到几乎连几个公里以外都听得到。这也难怪,卖华,狗大党与一大群太监就是为了做污桶的狗奴才而活。古人说得好,江山易改,本性难移。污桶,卖华 与狗大党这些废物到现在都没变,可能永远都不变。这也无妨,反正过了大选,这些不能再循环的废物,将永久摆在博物馆,只供人观赏,不会再危害人间。再见!(播放由蔡公公主唱的电影主题曲,让我一次卖个够)


请留意即将上映的续集“私生子”,剧情是关于民憎党的身世。敬请留意。

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

Toh Ching Hong : 你这条卖华的阉狗,先看看这部为你们这般狗政的废材而拍的戏“背叛的第一步”,然后在放你的春秋屁,好吗?

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

以下是我收集到不同种类的口号;


廉价航空公司airasia :
每個人都能飛,everyone can fly


“卖华”,“民憎”与“人猿党” :
每個人都能卖,everyone can sell


“卖华”大魔头蔡公公 :
每個人都能口交,everyone can suck


“污桶”的“那只鸡" :
每個人都能上,everyone can (不雅文)

Ang Woei Shang said...

Alan,

You should thank me, I help you promote the baseless personal attack you made against me! I think you would be more happy that more people are watching your "points" (or perhaps stupidity), so I help you promote it in FB and Cari.com, let more people see it~haha, are you happy now? I'm helping you to attack myself!

Kent Teh said...

Ang,這個Alan就是很典型的馬來西亞爛人了。那裡爛?
第一,英文爛!真的不知所謂,不懂他想說些甚麼,文不對題。
第二,文化爛!基本的稱呼禮貌都沒有,甚麼Little Kid,無聊。
第三,人格爛!連自己的名字都不敢寫上,基本對自己的尊重都不敢,是個沒有人格的動物。

這種爛人,在馬來西亞滿街是,就是馬來西亞最失敗的地方了。

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

Kent Teh : 说得好。在来!

马大汉 aka beh tahan said...

Toh Ching Hong :听说“卖华”付你RM2来这里帮“污桶”欺负自己的同胞。我就出双倍的贾钱,聘请你这名不知廉耻的阉枪去我家洗厕所。你要感恩我让你帮我洗厕所,这好过你当阉狗。

Anonymous said...

Mt Toh,

you are by far a more mature blogger. Spot on.

LA

Watcher said...

LA,hello idiots, I won't be surprised the way you praise your same species. However I just want to know when are you going to stop eating pig shit?

Ang Woei Shang said...

LA,

Blogger? You make me laugh again. Hehe.

Ang Woei Shang said...

文章写得好,肯定引起鼠辈的恐慌咯。所以我才感到高兴,呵呵。楼上的加油!

Kent兄说得好。好久不见了。

Anonymous said...

Watcher

I like pig shit and even like your wife's pussy juice ....cause it gives me the libido to screw your wife and girl friends...... I can assure you, your women will not go back to you after they come to me!!!!

LA

Watcher said...

LA,
You can't rape anybody, because you already lost your penis, don't you remember? You surrendered your balls and dick to UMNO to feed their dogs. Never mind just let me have the honor to remind you again.

Of course people like you will only consume pig shit but nothing else. I mean what else could attract your attention if it isn't filthy. I can see that you mind is too UMNO, maybe UMNO fed you too much of dog food. Maybe this is you. Anyway we will surely miss you after the next GE.

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